Ladle-7/Feedback


 * Legit
 * For starters, that was the worst ladle ive ever played. We organized a team and then when we played all positions etc... were all fucked up and hyphy i asked him to lay off def cus hes always too close and he still does it and fucked def once again. And as for redice little oops noob tking our whole team, at least 5 players in one round! And was unfair for that and also because the admin wasnt very good at locking a server cause some noob joined our team and fucked our whole team up as well. all this i will probably not play for TM anymore. And as for the finals was pretty good match to watch but tui was definantly the better team as watching how SP had to win by holing and getting the winzone. It was also funny when SP members would tell tui people to stfu and talk shit to them when they won but was also funny when pysko got all mad when someone got in his def and said it was a bullshit win for tui, next ladle should be handled better then this one.


 * 2020
 * I forgot I was meant to be harsher with team entry. Most of us gathered and got the team organised. Then we started our game again TuI, and hyph refused to stay in midfield and got involved with def. I tried to tighten us up as a team, and for the first time issued a threat... which didn't go well with some members of the team who weren't aware of the havoc at the back. We lost the first match. And in the second, new players entered the server, a player using a familiar team name team-killed, and wrtl was constantly asked to admin the game -- and he was our defender! I didn't get into any kind of groove, played like a noob. What a mess.
 * No idea what to do. I try to make it as clear as possible on the challenge board, and people seem confused about when it starts etc. I canjust about handle that, but not try to organise a team as well. I just want to play in a good game!!!!!!!!
 * Congratulations to SP... sorry about the delay... I am out of the loop and might not be able to play the next one, not because of how badly our team did in the last one (which I have just about recovered from), but just because I won't have connection. Still, i will set it up. I think there is plenty of discussion on the forums about setting up a league... I will stick to the ladle format and hopefully we can run a league concurrently, and even kings of the grid :)
 * As for the bitching on this feedback page... hehehehehhahahahah Remember it is a competitive thing, this fortress setting, and just like you have in football, you get a lot of talk off the grid... The way to solve it is team versus team on the grid, and I hope to get together a better team for the next ladle :) And as far as I am concerned, I only have problems with people who fuck-up play on the grid..


 * Durka
 * The organization was a bit spectacle this time because of the games being delayed by 45 minutes. Otherwise everything went smoothly.


 * About the finals, I didn't really care that it was 6 on 8 and they had a 2 man advantage, but what really pissed me off, was that it was 1-1 and in the 3rd match while the score was 76-70 their lead, the winzone popped up. We even had a one man advantage I belive at that point. They took the winzone and that boosted the score to 86-70. We could have easily won that match. Then, to top it off, they holed me (I was def) and went in and got the zone (using their 2 man advantage made it quite impossible to stop them while in the zone). Them winning that match completely turns around the entire finals. Instead of being 2-1 us, its 2-1 them. Then, in the 4th match, it was definately getting close, and it was 96-88 in the final round, and for the 10th time in the finals, I got holed by ~*SP*~ and they took the match.


 * My point I'm trying to make is that:
 * There should be no winzone what so ever
 * I know we've talked about this before, but as long as a team gets at least 5 or 6 players there, the other team should at least cut 1 person. I'm fine with a one-man advantage & I'm also fine with a two-man advantage, or even 3, but if they use those extra men to hole the defense 10 times throughout 4 matches, then that (in my mind) is a bit unfair.


 * Rico
 * I dont mind doing it in a reg game, but in a serious tourney, when I'm trying to def against 4 attackers, I dont take kindly to the rest of the opposing team spamming me with messages to put me off. I'd have ignored them, but when theres so much spam it takes up half your screen and you have to play with only 10 fps anyway, it kinda pissed me off.


 * Not that I was playing well anyway as it happens, but when I'm subject to "omg, our def sucks, alex you made us lose" etc etc criticism from my OWN TEAM because I was being distracted multiple ways... I do happen to get annoyed.


 * Whatever, I'll still be taking part in some events in the future. Just remind me to silence the WHOLE of the opposition.


 * AshitakA
 * I just want to admit that it wasn’t redice, who played at the end. He abused his name like 2020 already said. What a bummer! He hadn’t the courage to make it with his own name. Anyway, for the next ladle I want to mention the idea to let teams also play for the 3rd and 4th or 5th and 6th place. It wouldn’t take much more time, because they play at the same time as the final would be. At the moment there are enough fort server online to realise this idea. Maybe you can include it into the ladle system.


 * k3nNy
 * Sp had a good setup, a good team with good team organisation. i think it is sad that no one here can gratulate sp for winning the ladle but instead some of you are searching for excuses why sp shouldnt have won the ladle. first: legit. hey dude, you say sp wasnt good as tui? i think thats kinda odd when you watch the field domination sp had during the finals. sp played with 2-3 defensive players and they didnt have much to do. sp was playing with 5 offensive players. so if you count those 5 offensive players + the defensive tui players you get quite much players dont u? so isnt it then a logical outcome that there is a quite high percentage for the defence of being holed by a dying player? so legit, tell me 1 person who wouldnt use a hole in the finals of the ladle. "SP had to win by holing and getting the winzone" --> this sounds for me that u accuse sp for holling on purpuse, which wasnt at all.
 * well then about the winzone... first of all: as always i think it should be disabled too.
 * then to the situation: durka, it was a 2 on 2 situation, 1 sp attacking against 2 doubledefending tuis (which made it impossible for the attacker to do sth), 1 sp staying in the back in case the attacker dies. how long did that situation last? how long could it have been lasting. well i was the one in the back, probably grinding myself for the 30st time in a row, waiting for sth to happen. first i thought aw dam winzone wth are you doin here. then i thought what the heck. so i think the first time i took a winzone because i was gettin that bored back in there! i just wanted that round to be over, i didnt care if tui would have taken it.
 * oh and back to legit again: sp members well telling tui members to shut up because they were whining non stop. its a ladle final, so please be a man, play it and loose it or win it. congratulations sps!
 * btw. exept i think the winzone should be disabled by default, i think this ladle was fine as usual.


 * Legit
 * LoL kenny, fine speech but TUI is definantly were better players. Just by knowing some of the members in tui and i dont even know most of them and i knew all SP that were playing TUI has definantly better team. Who did you have? Pysko and Sasha and uhh who else...? LoL anyways, if you were so bored of the ladle match and wanted to get the winzone then why the fuck are you playing in the ladle if its boring?!?! You had a player HellBlade who didnt even get to play and wanted to and you sat there being bored playin it when someone else in your clan could had actually enjoyed it? Your excuses are lame and you know you were afraid sp was going to loose cause TUI was a better team that why you really got the winzone.


 * fr34ky
 * LoL Legit, nice offenses but SP just won with all allowed methods, using no cheats. Holes were allowed, so we used them...a Winzone was there too, k3nNy used it and i agree with him! At first...it's really boring back there, and you know why it was boring? - No, not because Ladle is so boring, it was because no TuI attacked us...and why didnt they attack us? Hmmm, i think you know the answer. Oh and k3nNy had no chance to see any TuI not using the winzone...so he couldnt know TuI didnt want to use it. Congratulations Speeders, nice Ladle for us and certainly many other Players (except you Legit :->)
 * greets, fr34ky


 * k3nNy
 * you must have been in another match legit, because i didnt have one single time the feeling tui was going to win. they had a good comeback to 1-1 but that was it. sp was the best team yesterday, because they acted like a team. good teamplay etc. made us strong. we didnt care about "players" like you do. everyone had their job, and everyone did it great. the reason why hellblade couldnt play is because he is an offensive player too, and we were already playing with 5 offensive players with psyko and me in defence (and obli), though we are normally both offensive players too. still i wont force anyone in a good playing team to sit out.
 * and to you legit, please stop your whining and complaining all the time. that prejudiced whining of you is goin on my nerves. if you loose you loose, then stand to it. maybe you will win next time again, who knows. but stop that prejeduce stuff like: oh sp used holes, they certainly did that on purpurse. oh k3nny said he got bored that round, in that case he certainly thought the whole ladle was boring ?!? if you dont get it dude, go and watch the replay of that round, maybe in 10 years you will understand it when ur mature enough.


 * Rico
 * Funny that no-one has replied to my comment about the purposeful distractions. Of course it doesn't matter, as all of you would deny it anyway.


 * Anyway, grats, even though winzoning is the lamest way to win ever, just an unparallelled level of chicken-ness. And ok, holing is fine, but when its like 5 on 1 and someone holes on purpose, thats annoying. As a defender, I have to deal with it all the time.


 * Thats my piece, any comments about the purposeful distractions would be much appreciated. Thanks


 * PsYkO
 * How about a "congratz"?


 * madmax
 * First of all, congratz. I pretty much know nothing more about what happened so...
 * The main thing I see is that always playing a knockout competition is not a good thing. It gets too... usual. I think some kind of championship competition and making the ladles more spaced (two/threee months maybe more?) would be a nice idea.
 * I think in a knockout system it sure proves who was the best team then, but hey, what if a team who lost one game would win against all other teams? What if they were having a bad day? Having a championship (point based) would be IMHO a good idea. Perhaps that whole thought of "Kings Of the Grid"... After all, theres already a domain :)
 * Also, it would benefit teams that consistently make good games, not only "that day" with "that conditions" with "..."

Legit will you ever stop complaining and whining o they holed o they did this o is that a 2 yr old i hear talking legit because it sures sounds like one... Legit also who are you to say people suck whenever i see you in a game its lag killed me omg i just slipped or someother bs excuse i have never seen you once do a spectacular move to win a match, now you slag of redice out of oops is that because they rejected you when you tryed joining them hmmm i wonder. Save your complaints for people who care and btw when your good then i think you may have a leg to stand on atm you got a damn toothbrush.
 * Speed


 * Rico
 * Read my post before psyko, i did say grats ;)

ROFL TUI The first round we won where it was a 4 on 2. 1 attacker died and made a hole and the other attackers didnt go through. But instead waited till they had dumped the sweeper into his won def, and then went through that hole, you where even then calling us holers etc. You guys where making excuses every round.......
 * Omega

Durka 76-70 so what, whose to say you would have won. Statistically accounting for the match ending 3-1, you would have lost. I remember the 2 ladles ago the 5th which TM won i remember final match we were down 70-92 and we still won, so saying we would have easily won etc is nonsense as anything can happen. This reminds me of WPN etc, you guys are both like immature little children who cant take losing at all. And @alex who was spamming you, tell me and ill sort em out.
 * Durka
 * Are you kidding me? The winzone is a 20 point spin. 10 points for you guys which made it 86-70. It could have been 80-76. Then again, I would have liked to see you guys beat us that round considering the fact that thru 6 matches in the Ladle, I only got pwnd twice, & the 2 people that got by me from SP had already died. I'm not being cocky, but I always like a challenge and that would have been fun.
 * Forgetting all of this, I know it was our fault, but look what kenny said above. They had 5 people attacking. Well, we only had 6 players total (again, this was our fault). So, you expect us to play agressive being 2 men down each round. That's similar to having like a 4 on 2 and having the team with 2 be on the attack. It makes no sense. When we played you guys in the last ladle and beat you guys, all you said was, well we didn't have Psyko or Whatup. Yes, Psyko & Whatup helped you a lot this ladle, but if we had brought 2 more players, then it would have gotten interesting and we would have been more on the attack. We look forward to rematching you guys, but with a full team this time. O, and how about the thought of playing in a US server? I'd like to see Viper, Cyclo, Kenny, Sasha, & Omega with pings like what I usually get :)


 * k3nNy
 * i think that round of the winzone stuff wasnt that match deciding. it was more important who was goin to win the round after that one. you could have equalized to about 90-86 or if it would have been the otherway round we could have gone from 80-76 to about 92-86. still, i hope we wont have that situation in future again. in case the zone doesnt get turned off, teams could tell before the matches each other they wont use it, then it should be np too.
 * its true our field domination was partially that high because of the higher number of players. still the rules of the ladle arent very strict, so it should be no problem for a team to get it full actually. thats why i am against cutting players in the ladle if the other team hasnt enough. make sure you have 9-10 and it should be no problem.
 * about that whatup and psyko & last ladle stuff. we didnt loose the last ladle because they werent here. we lost it because the organisation was bad & the setup was totally wrong. this ladle we played the semis against x. and they were strong i can tell u. they filled their team with players like pavelo. psyko didnt even play yet & whatup took cyclos place because he didnt show up either. in case whatup also wouldnt have been there we still had a great center attacker in hellblade. so, we won it 2-0 then. then to the finals: psyko got a spot in the team & got defender. but as we had 5 attackers and your team was (forced) playing defensive, we didnt have had much to do back there. so psyko wasnt very much involved. so i can tell u: we didnt win because whatup was playing & later psyko too, but because the teamplay etc. was great. thats far more important. i dont c team somethingsomething win because of 1 or 2 players either. they won because they were a great team. and i also dont c pings deciding the matches. btw those 2 players who made the difference in your opinion were "highpingers" from us too. :)
 * well i look forward to the next ladle & playing against tui again. i hope in a balanced 8 vs 8 and on either zmans or wrtl, just simply because those 2 servers are the ones who dont go nuts when there are 20+ players on it :) (16 playing + spec & exchange players).


 * Legit
 * Oh kenny dont give me that bs that i didnt see what was goin on, i was in spectator mode the whole time watching around. Im not even in the tui match so what are you sayin i loose sum i loose sum? Kno whats going on first before you open that little minded mouth of yours. And as for speed, you obviously dont play fortress much as looking at how you play or know how i play. And as to what durka says is 100% tru and woudl be even be a harder match vs them if it were in a US server. Congrats to TUI on doin what ya did. Theres the congrats from me.


 * PsYkO
 * Thx max and rico


 * k3nNy
 * i think you played for tm legit? and i think tm lost the semis? btw i didnt open my mouth 1 single time while i was writing this. i can imagine you writing with your mouth wide open though xD. well back to the topic: as long as there is no us server which doesnt go nuts with 20+ players, there will no finals be played there i think. i c no reason to do that. same for 2020 server, that one goes nuts too with too many players, well the finals arent played there either are they. i can remember the finals of the 5th ladle, which even were moved after start from 2020 to zmans? btw the ping doesnt make a that huge difference as you guys are acting it does.


 * Legit
 * I never complained about my match about loosing, ive been talking about the tui vs sp match. You know dam well you needed the winzone and them holes or you wouldnt have survived that close of a game maybe 100-50 if your lucky but in a US server would be even worse for you cause of course european servers get overruled all the time cause SOME european people like you bitch about how laggy it always is for you in our servers and dont ever think about the fact how it is for us in your servers and deal with it all the time so now you can think of how the score would have been for tui in a us server then in a european server even when they made it a close enuff game in euro server xD.


 * Sasha
 * Wow! WTF R U talking about? Lets see who will win the next one: Ladle 8! About holing: for me its a part of the _classic_fortress_ game (see server settings and shut up or tell something to server admin). About win-zone: the same answer. My opinion: holes can be used and winzone must be used (of course its fun for those who are playing, but not for the others who are just sitting and watching fuckin stupid square defense and attackers doing nothing).
 * Specially for those who sad "holing is for n000bz, winzone is guyzone" I want to say: "Then n00bz own you! HA-HA-HA!" ;)
 * Ok, after all I sad, I want to say that I also think that we won doubly/foul (dunno english well, choice the right word).
 * To team X: Great game, good team, I want to face you again.
 * To TuI: It was fun to play with "numbers" :) I also want to meet you on grid again.
 * To Legit: shut up sometimes :)
 * To Durka: test
 * To 2020: organize something like madmax sad, please.


 * MaZuffeR
 * Interesting to see that you guys really take this so seriously, it's just a game :). I just watched some parts of the final. TuI didn't adapt to SP using pretty much every possible hole. The sweepers should have played much closer to the zone, so that they could cover the hole, or atleast go through the hole right after the attacker. The times I saw an attacker going through a hole, there was no sweeper close to him. And Durka, if you don't want holes in your wall, don't kill the attackers at every chance you get, let the sweepers take care of them (yes, I'm serious).


 * fr34ky
 * Hmrpf, let's cound the US Players/EU Players and guess why we play on european servers. Sure you can manage an US Ladle, but without me and certainly many other EU Players. I also hate high pings (yeah it's also not easy for a low-pinger to kill an US-High-pinger) but can you manage a flying server or one in the ocean?


 * Rico
 * LOL at a flying server xD

whered that msn convo go? And lol we arent allowed to use our own players in a competition, yes whatup and psyko did alot but we beat x without psyko, and they have a lot of good players. Stop with the excuses you lost to a better team on the day end of! Maz is right as usual. Sweepers have to stick close If you saw a hole in opponents def in the ladle you wouldnt go through. If u say no i wouldnt ud be chatting shit, Durka and legit use holes in normal play let alone the ladle. I can imagine how many people are at the moment laffing at you 2 crying over a defeat cos your opponents used strats that have been delibrately left in the game to use lol, especially when you use 1 of these strats in normal gameplay. And legit what the hell is your problem are you even in TUI? You already have a terrible rep in tron after those comments you made.
 * Omega


 * k3nNy
 * well, as some partially blame their ping (see the finals) for loosing, i went through zmans stats and compared the finals with the x-sp semifinals. well here some stats first:


 * match 1 Tui vs Sp:
 * Tui: 6 players, average 176 ping
 * Sp: 8 players, average 99 ping


 * match 2 Tui vs Sp:
 * Tui: 7 players, average 172 ping
 * Sp: 8 players, average 114 ping


 * match 3 Tui vs Sp:
 * Tui: 7 players, average 164 ping
 * Sp: 8 players, average 155 ping


 * match 4 Tui vs Sp:
 * Tui: 6 players, average 143 ping
 * Sp: 8 players, average 110 ping
 * Total averages: Tui: 163, Sp: 120 // diff: 43
 * (the outcome in a row: sp-tui: 1-0 1-1 2-1 3-1)


 * match 1 x vs sp:
 * X: 8 players, average 77 ping
 * Sp: 8 players, average 110 ping


 * match 2 x vs sp:
 * X: 8 players, average 80 ping
 * Sp: 8 players, average 108 ping
 * Total averages: X: 79, Sp: 109 // diff: 30
 * (the outcome in a row: x-sp: 0-1 0-2)


 * the finals compared with the semis show quite good that the ping is not "that" important.
 * the top 5 rankings even show it more. only 1 time out of 6 matches an european player was on top.
 * of course if your ping is higher then like 220 you will get problems. and someone with a 40 ping will have a slight advantage against someone with 200.
 * (see: http://www.thp.uni-koeln.de/~moos/tronstats/ladle7/ by zman)
 * btw my ping wasnt very good that day durka :) from ~150 in the afternoon till finally ~60 in the late evening. Actually most of the time only viper (and me in the last match) had "good" pings around 50-60.


 * JJBean
 * Wow i really love how the 'feedback' page turned into lets bitch about how we lost and how they cheated..... Lets also talk about how no one likes SP and doesn't like to see jerks win. Yes I am calling you jerks because all you guys do is gloat about how 'good' you are. I left after we lost that final match because i knew all we were going to here was how 'good' you guys are. Lets have a rematch before the 8th ladle ON AND AMERICAN SERVER and see who wins. <=== You will most likely say fuck that because you know you cannot beat us when we will have an average ping lower than yours. As for the holing and the winzone, Holes yea who gives a fuck, I know we are going to hole the fuck out of you next time we play you, but WINZONE come on. I could have taken it three times that round but i just zoomed around waiting for your attacker to actually do somthing, which he never did, well atleast before she took the winzone. You won't get a gratz from me all you will get is a WD for beating us and a GL for the future....


 * Sasha
 * Note that Durka has forgotten that he himself took the winzone in the 6th ladle. JJBean, hi! :)


 * k3nNy
 * that is arranged. you give that american server, we give date and time...


 * fr34ky
 * Speeders, you read, what she said and i want to say, taht i'm really sad you don't like me JJBean.
 * [...]
 * But i think it would be also fun for us, too see you guys on your American-Lowping-Server, beating our 500-Ping-Double-Defense with holing :). Please tell us before if holing will be possible and if there is a winzone.

JJbean or mgt or whoever you wanna be called we didnt brag once we got shit from tui as soon as we won it was oh you holers blah blah blah i didnt actually here 1 of us gloat, like you dont say ~|DS|~ on top and all that crap hmm gloating yes or no sodont start saying crap how we gloat when all what happens is noobs who cant take losing proerly complain.
 * Speed


 * Omega
 * oh look what i found legit
 * [22] Gothica --> Legit: in console set  ping_charity 999999999
 * [13] Legit --> Gothica: yeah
 * [3] ~*HeLlBlAdE*~: lol
 * [5] ~*SP*~Sp33d: nerd leavbe
 * [19] ~*SP*~viper~: am i 2 or 3 ?
 * [1] ~*SP*~oO.k3nNy: 3 xD
 * [19] ~*SP*~viper~: ok
 * [3] ~*HeLlBlAdE*~: 3
 * [14] ~*SP*~Sasha --> Teammates: ~*WhAtUp*~, Now my place is 4th
 * [22] Gothica --> Legit: give them extra lag
 * [22] Gothica: lol
 * [13] Legit --> Gothica: do it when sp is attacking cus i hate htem
 * [22] Gothica --> Legit: just set it now, it lasts till u change it back to 100
 * [13] Legit --> Gothica: just set it when sp is attacking
 * [22] Gothica --> Legit: if u set it on, it stays on untill u change it
 * [13] Legit --> Gothica: so yeah only do it when sp attacks
 * [13] Legit --> Gothica: so tui dosnt get it
 * [22] Gothica --> Legit: nopw
 * [0] ~*SP*~ 4 core dumped TuI ~ 7 for 2 points.
 * [4] TuI~4 --> Teammates: HELP DEF! HELP DEF!
 * [4] TuI~4 --> Teammates: DEF DOWN! DEF DOWN!
 * [0] ~*WhAtUp*~ core dumped TuI ~ 6 for 2 points.
 * [15] TuI ~ 7: Wow this is so fucking laggy
 * [4] TuI~4: wow this is laggy


 * thats interesting aint it Legit u loser. A ban maybe for gothica and Legit for trying to cheat and delibrately lag the server up. Dont believe me ask Zman for the server logs


 * Legit
 * Lol omega, i already have a terible rep on tron from what i said? maybe to your sp clan but i really dont care cus all of you are retarded nor do i like any of them but maybe 2. And Sasha, durka took the winzone in the other ladle because the other team took it first.


 * JJBean
 * Uhm I am pretty sure I have not said any of that ~|DS|~ on top shit in like 6 months, and wtf does that have to do with this anyways? DS gloats on DS servers because we are the shit there! And nice one Legit, you really are the best......... And for all those Sp's PENIS!


 * Sasha
 * We must really replay this Ladle, but 2 more times, not just one, in order to get best of 3! :)
 * People, ok. Stop spamming here about "SP suscks". Lets see who will win 8th Ladle! Wait just three weeks.


 * fr34ky
 * Very interesting Omega, nice!
 * @ JJBean, Legit: It's ennoying to see you like little kids, just using offenses and crying "sp sucks".


 * PsYkO
 * JJBean - what you said about sp always saying we are the best and gloating is bullshit..everyone who says it is a bullshitter. THe first couple of months of sp being revived I had some of these complaints and I found some people having hot keys saying "sp rules" and stuff like that and I took care of it.  We have the most modest team/clan in tron and you are too closed minded to see that.


 * Luzifer
 * OK, first of all grats to SP! And now something about the rest,heh. I think that this is a feedback page and not a forum. Well, here's my feedback: :I quite enjoyed the finals because for me (as an attacker) it was a great challenge trying to beat SP's defense. I agree with durka that it was our :fault to sign up with more players than we showed up with, I hope this won't happen again. Holing... In my opinion, holes are part of the game. If :you don't like them, go to a server without holes, that's it. And the winzone... well, this is also a part of the game but I suggest turning it of :at the ladles from now on. During the final, it was on and so it was just normal to use it. No cheat, no trick, just another part of the game. The :last thing I want to mention is the tim change. It was a bit too late to change the time because many players dont check the wiki often, which :might be their fault, heh.
 * I'm looking forward to play against SP at the 8th ladle or playing a rematch.


 * JJBean
 * Honestly you guys think 'I' was saying sp sucks...... if you read what I actually typed you see that i said how everyone, not me myself, but everyone. I did not say I, but if you guys think i did then you must actually suck..... freaky and calling us little kids......Nice Good one........ I don't have a problem with SP or how they won anymore, actually I used to like allot of you guys and still like most, but BLAH BLAH BLAH who cares anymore most people have cooled off and I hope everyone can just fuck off. EVERYONE


 * Legit
 * This is dumb... You won the way u had to win and thats that. Goodluck in the rest.


 * PsYkO
 * Legit, you are just asking to be slapped around by me.


 * Legit
 * umm what do u want me to say? LOL????


 * PsYkO
 * Exactly, nothing. You are respected less than George W. Bush in the gay community.


 * Legit
 * Topic has officially been killed. Goodbye.

'This page is for feedback, not idle bickering. Keep on topic and try offering constructive critisism rather then arguing' --Your mom 21:25, 12 January 2007 (CST)